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Comment by Lorri Centineo on February 23, 2010 at 1:56am

This is what I was originally responding to:

Ilene wrote:
When it comes to writing, I find that I become overwhelmed when I think of trying to do everything at once: ideas, grammar, spelling, organization. I find it much easier, and more pleasurable, to write when I take baby steps. First, I like to create what I call a brainstorming outline. I just write down words that express what I think I want to include without regard for order. Then, I start forming sentences/paragraphs for each thought. I find that I can concentrate on my grammar if I take it in small chunks (i.e. sentence by sentence). After all my paragraphs are written, I organize them, and adjust the sentences and grammar as appropriate to make them flow. The very last thing I do is check for spelling. This may seem like a slow, painful way to write, but it works for me. If I were to attempt to "just write", I would end up staring at the blank page forever, not knowing where to begin or what to do.

I am on several Ning Groups and it seems that they don't all have the same internal configuration for comments. Sorry.

L

Comment by Lorri Centineo on February 23, 2010 at 1:30am

Kathleen, so many factors cause many differences in experiences. My son is an excellent writer, and a wonderful poet. There is no lack of knowledge issue here, nor lack of storytelling ( it is what both of my parents - one with a Brit accent- and I made part of a living doing, and my son does it, too). What clinched the writing issue for me, at past age 40, was learning that I am a spatial/pattern thinker, and then finging resources that addressed that issue, like Prof Gerald Grow's articles on Visual Spatial writing, and David Lohman's articles about spatial thinking...and then I'd read work by authors who, to me, were obviously not primarily verbal thinkers. I learned to use an entirely different set of words, one conducive to fluid thought in other than words

Neurology differs, though. I cannot write a check without my hands cramping up, and it's not due to untrained grip or simular issues...and my son has a similar problem. So he's negotiating something in addition to dyslexia, as many dyslexic people do. In this case 'faster' isn't going to happen regardless of practice. I suspect that he'll eventually work out what I call 'an economy of words' in which what he wants to say will be succint, but have creative voice. And it is that which the school is overlooking but what this particular mentor knows how to do. My mother, my son, and I have an APD, which adds its own joys to the day...lipreading for me, as a teen...for, as you say, they didn't give us help then, right?

My son is a Senior in high school who has been published in anthologies even outside of school. People/teachers ignore than he does that and, probably from habit, revert to the old bit about lazy scribblers. Teens in some other districts and some college students with his level of disability are allowed to audio-record their answers or are given a scribe. My son will be allowed a scribe for SAT's, but not because the school had anything to do with it....that was the board's decision. Some teachers, even in his school, allow limited oral exams; my son doesn't happen to have those teachers. That's too bad...he scores off the charts in that endeavor. And so...the frustration.

We're not talking averaging C's and A's, and this was not just about my own son. There are incredibly bright kids FLUNKING, averaging C's and varying degrees of F's because 'content' was not graded first for classes other than language arts. This is sooo different than in the 60's and 70's, though I recall when it began to change....right after new math....

I shall continue to 'rant' through this year. Next year we'll do sciences at the uni...several...as we can pick the professors that way. We've scoped out just whose classes to take. My TA and I negotiated with her classics prof to allow her to 'lecture' to the class and paint an accompanying mural in lieu of written work. That is what I mean when I ask about how to get 'around' the writing issues. There are ways to wiggle when you know that there will not be enough improvement for two decades to make the difference. I'd like an expanded list.

This involves more than just grades, but access to higher education, scholarship money, and....learning itself. My son isn't learning anything because he really needs to be in AP classes, and, socially, needs to be with peers. He is denied both because writing is the main form of assessment in those classes in our school. And this is why he is graduating early -and if not for an administrative boo boo, he'd be out already....because he CAN take higher level classes at the university or at least have a blast at art school with a Bunsen burner and glass rods...and if I know him, he'll hang out at an open mic. Iromically, he had to do time in school - not homeschool- to get the accomodations he needs carried into the next stage.

Two broken arms is too many. Yikes....

For him there is another emotional piece, that in seeing the inequities at several levels. He's jealous of kids in other places who, even with his issues, are stil allowed to take AP classes. He feels VERY badly for the kids in his position who he is leaving behind (in his words) to rot.

Comment by Nim on February 23, 2010 at 12:40am

Hello

this isn't odd - what is odd is the general perception thatdyslexis cannot write! I have been researching dyslexics that write - professionally - for 5 years as part of my phd. I also run a writing group for dyslexics who are closet writing lovers! I have noticed some general patterns in the style of dyslexic writers as well as some simililarities in their strategies and approach. I started my own dyslexic publishing company www.r-a-s-p.co.uk for exactly the reasons you described katherleen! My work is about opening up possibilities and oppertunities for dysleixcs. I want to open up discussion about the importance of dyslexics as authors - not close it down. At the moment we are working on three publications: one is a collection of poems. One is a collection of plays and one is a collection of stories - what they have in common is authors who are dyslexic. Why this is important is up to you to think about - I have my views and those resonantr with what katherleen said. If you have work / writing that you wish to be considered for any of the above anthologies please send me an email at dyslexicwriters@gmail.com

thanks,
nim

Comment by Kathleen LPV on February 22, 2010 at 10:25pm

Hi, odd, but maybe 'cause my folks & elder siblings spoke "the King's English" at home, I never had a problem with grammar or writing. I did well on anything I wrote, from Poetry, to Prose, to Essay, to research papers. It was the testing that vexed me (no "extra" time in the '50s & '60s classes!) In fact, in college (I started age 43 & got the BA age 50), EVERY class where I had to write a paper or write an essay for a final, I got an A or A+, AND every class I had to take a test, I wound up with a C or C+ ... go figure!

I guess it could have something to do with how your brain & family communication (?) works. My family were story tellers. And. my Mom, Pop, and siblings too, were always correcting my grammar, usually very nicely, but consistently. Mom's only persistent "pain" was my spelling!
I'm sure Nim is right, it gets easier in time, you CAN learn to do anything. Somehow I learned to "cope" with my LD, without ANY extra help, and absolutely no understanding of what I and others were going through back then.

But what that helped me most was reading for fun. Reading everything and anything I was interested in, in my own time frame. We went to the local Library almost every week. I only got one book, usually Horse stories. I renewed it as much as I could, and read slowly. Eventually I got better at both reading and writing.

Reading & writing poetry helped too. That helped me a lot, made me think of how to formulate concise sentences that had an impact. And of course, practice helps. Writing something, anything, even if it's an imaginary story.

Our son Joe, had a "creative writing" class in Middle School. It was voluntary, open to any kid who wanted to do it during lunch hour. It was only a few weeks or maybe a few months. Each kid did a short paragraph story about something that happened to them. They wrote fiction & stories about themselves. Then all the kids wrote stories about some event in their lives. These were published in the town paper ... with their photo. WOW what encouragement! Joe wrote about his broken arms (both at the same time). His writing improved greatly after this.

SO, you might suggest doing that to his school, to do such a project. Bet the kids would be willing to eat their lunch while writing stories, especially if they think it might be published. (I still carry that clipping in my purse, from about 30 years ago!)

Comment by Lorri Centineo on February 21, 2010 at 3:18pm

Thanks, Nim. I do know about most of that, if not all. I've had wonderful successes at advocating for and getting accomodations for OPK's (Other People's Kids) whose issues are more easily defined and do not defy the validity of all that the system believes in. That's why I'm rantivisitic (like that neologism?) this week.

Part of my ranting this week is the addition, and a wonderful one, to my son's educational arsenal, a writing mentor...and in many national circles, a very well-known educator/administrator. A comfort in this is that two of his three children had LDs, and one a stroke in her teens, and so...he's sympathetic with the plight of this kind of kid clawing a way out. He also sees the merit and joys of kiddo's writing. While I'm relieved, I'm angry that the school is so blind to what this person is delighted to find.

He wrote:
"It's eye-popping stuff--especially the early works. I've never seen anything like that out of an 8- or 9-year-old. His handling of language is so subtle, so playful, and so multi-layered; his capacity for stepping out of himself to adopt the point-of-view of, say, a bent-nose clam; his sheer articulateness; his seemingly bottomless well of images; and the joi-de-vivre that comes through--it's all so unexpected."

I am also frustrated because I'm watching kiddo's self-esteem yo-yo once again. For years he was homeschooled and felt a bit ostracized for that, and now that he is in school, he feels it again, just differently. Again...he feels the joy of recognition and at the same time renewed pain that his own community sees it not at all.

Comment by Nim on February 21, 2010 at 11:04am

Lorri,

Sorry for the delay in my response. What you have to say is very important. I’m going to try to respond to as much of it as possible.

My first reaction is that, as we know, your son is being education in a system which does not fully understand dyslexia and which is struggling to know how to ‘measure’ the learning of children who learn differently.

This difference means that he cannot learn the basics without learning much more complex stuff first, which means incremental learning just does not engage. On top of that, we know that ‘learning’ is not just about ‘measuring’. If the school is measuring how quickly he can write, then he is simply learning to write quickly, not interestingly.

He gets extra time – wonderful. It is a sign that the system is willing to change. But it still wants him to fit a mould that doesn’t fit. In it, he looks odd. Learning that you are odd is extra to the curriculum. It doesn’t show a child that he or she is valued. It is saying: you are foreign. You are strange.

He can’t write fast. Or maybe he can. Writing fast is a skill that he can learn – personally I feel that he can only learn with practice. This means his marks will not reflect his ability. We know this.

What it looks like to me is that you are doing everything in your power to help your son. It seems like you know that the current system does not allow your son to demonstrate his learning. You know that it does not value him and this, I can imagine is frustrating for you and boring for him.

You should rant. And you shouldn’t let anyone let you feel awkward for doing so. Only by ranting will we keep things changing. Things are changing. And you are graduating. Well done. History does repeat itself but with every repetition there is difference. Have faith that people do and are willing to deal with the issues involved – it is just that what these are, isn’t always as clear to others as they are to us.

They are clear to us because we live it. We know what it is like to go through school and be told you have failed, over and over and over again. Failing can make us weaker or it can make us stronger. I am not sure if it is even up to us to decide what we want to become. I do know that we never stop becoming. Life carries on and the more of us talk the more strength we have and the quicker things will change. They will change.

Comment by Lorri Centineo on February 19, 2010 at 7:59am

Oh, yeah, I am sent the messages, too. :) D'oh.


There is no question that my son CAN write and write well. The issue presented has naught to do with that but with the current trend in producing 'in class' written work or work overnight. Most writing processes will work for a paper due next week or a month from now, but not for practical daily school work.

My son gets 25% more time. That is the limit that has been set by the school, except for essay responses in tests, which is 50%. But we're not talking about being able to use babysteps, one step at a time, in these situations. If kiddo has one hour in which to take a test that included three essay responses, and his actual time to write a response is 15-20 minutes per short paragraph, this makes the feat next to impossible. (Boy do I miss homeschooling.)

This school has NEVER allowed a scribe. The kids in this school who have higher cognitive ability who can A's on tests, are being docked for the homework, some to the point of being flunked....from A's to F's because of the writing issues. In other words, if the PSAT writing score was in the top 10%-ile, they expect actual written work to reflect that, not a TOWL at 37%-ile which is still 'average' so not considered basis for SPED or some other accomodations.

From the neurologist: Voice recognition software or scribe
From the clinical psych: Voice regcognition or scribe
From a school psyche's eval: Voice recognition or scribe

(Yes, more than JUST dyslexia at work.)

He can't take AP classes because...gee, the writing, and they won't allow a 504 Plan to include access to AP classes because the description of the class includes (paraphrased here) the ability and motivation to do the written work...as if that was the only part of the class.

Yes, ranting....but I'm about to graduate, they are about to graduate a 15 year old because they don't want to deal with the issues involved.

I'll get over it. Maybe. Feels like history repeating itself :)

Comment by Lorri Centineo on February 19, 2010 at 7:52am

I just sent out a message that was meant to be a post to the group. Now I can't find the message. Fernette, if you have a minute in the next day or two and get that message, could you post it here for me, please.

Grazie :)

Lorri

Comment by Drs. Fernette and Brock Eide on February 19, 2010 at 7:15am

Nim, I'll also mention DYS-PLA and your Poetry Anthology on our Facebook page (facebook.com/dyslexicadvantage) Thank you.

Comment by Nim on February 19, 2010 at 6:53am

Call for Submission: Poems by dyslexic writers

We are a mission to find 100 brilliant poems, stories or other text by dyslexic writers for the upcoming publication ‘Forgotten Letters’.

Forgotten Letters will be the first anthology of poems written by dyslexics, to be launched in November 2010 to coincide with dyslexia awareness week.

Poems do not have to be about dyslexia, they simply have to be authored by dyslexics. Poets can enter up to five poems for consideration. There is no charge for contributions and all writers will get royalties from sales of the publication.

The deadline for submissions is April 1st. If your poems are selected for publication you will be notified May 1st. Any questions do not hesitate to email Nim Folb dyslexicwriters@gmail.com

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